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dwarf’s original mdps

March 5, 2009

Welcome to my non-comprehensive review of Ironbreakers. I’m going to try and keep this as analytical as possible. I don’t want drama. All I’m setting out to do here is to compare Ironbreaker to the other tank classes. I will be looking at Ironbreaker’s abilities and comparing them to the best any other tank has to offer. This means that Ironbreaker is not having its abilities compared with its ‘mirror’ but instead against a combination of all other tanks in the game. For instance, Binding Grudge will be compared to Crippling Anger, but as Blackguard has no answer to Stonebreaker, I will instead use Wot Armor? from a Black Orc. This is done simply to show that this is not a problem with being a cross mirror, or some other issue, the abilities are simply better. I will not be going over every single ability, as many are carbon copies of other tank abilities (ie. Punishing Blow vs Touch of Palsy).

Please also note that since this is from an PVP perspective, this will not be going over things which are purely PVE like threat, or AOE grinding. If someone else would like to run comparisons in those fields, I think that’s great, but as that is not the central purpose of WAR I’d prefer to stay on topic with PVP. I’ll just go down in order of the rank at which the ability is received. This list isn’t comprehensive, as I said, but instead centers more on damage output and buffs.

Guarded Attack: Increases your and your Oath Friend’s armor by 990.
We’z Bigger (BO): Increases you and your parties armor by 600.
— Here the ability to protect a single target is better for the Ironbreaker, while the Black Orc has an advantage in increase the entire group’s armor. Ironbreaker has the advantage here in small scale battles.

Binding Grudge: 40% snare and 852 damage over 10 seconds.
Crippling Anger (BG): 40% snare and 250 damage over 10 seconds.
— Under 25 Grudge Crippling Anger deals 4 more damage than Binding Grudge, at any higher value Ironbreaker is at a heavy advantage.

Heavy Blow: 150 damage + 243 damage over 3 seconds.
Blazing Blade (Kn): 112 damage + 198 over 3 seconds, DoT stacks to 3.
— In long fights Blazing Blade pulls ahead by keeping up the full DoT stack. In short fights Heavy Blow is superior due to higher DPS when weaving between other attacks.

Shield of Reprisal: 3 second knockdown, 10 second cooldown, requires Block/Parry and a shield.
Downfall (CH): 4 second knockdown, 20 second cooldown.
— If in a situation where you, or your Oath Friend are being attacked, Shield of Reprisal is better due to the 10 second cooldown. Otherwise Downfall is superior.

Inspiring Attack: +120 strength, +480 willpower to Oath Friend, 3s Knockdown w/ tactic.
Da Greenest (BO): Random chance to add 120 of any stat to group.
— Feeding on Weakness (BG) matches the +120 strength on-demand, but offers no other utility. Da Greenest can be slotted to increase group strength on-demand, however its other affects are purely random. No other ability can match the willpower bonus. With the tactic this becomes a nearly spammable knockdown that can be rotated on targets.

Stone Breaker: 150 damage, -1600 armor.
Wot Armor? (BO): 75 damage, -990 armor.
— Wot Armor? is better as a debuff if the Ironbreaker is below 50 Grudges. At 50 Grudges Stone Breaker is superior due to a damage advantage and higher debuff. At 100 Grudges Stone Breaker is nearly twice as good against medium targets and almost three times better against other tanks.

Away With Ye: Extremely long knockback, 10 second cooldown.
Repel (CH): Medium knockback, 10 second cooldown.
— You may be confused because Repel is a short knockback with a 20 second cooldown. This is with Hastened Dismissal as a tactic to improve it. Even at this Away With Ye is much better due to knocking back nearly twice as far and not requiring a tactic.

Rune Etched Axe: 112 damage, ignores armor, 30 foot AOE, medium knockback and AOE snare.
Gusting Wind (SM): 150 spirit damage, 30 foot AOE, medium knockback.
— Gusting Winds no longer requires a tactic to compete with REA. However on most targets it still does less damage and the AOE snare pushes REA above Gusting Winds.

Cave-In: 4 second knockdown, 745 damage over 5 seconds, 20 second cooldown.
Down Ya Go: 3 second knockdown, 415 damage, 20 second cooldown.
— These both require greatweapons. However, Down Ya Go does much less damage and can only be used in the proper ‘plan’ mechanic.

Earthshatter: 748 damage, 30 foot AOE, 40% snare to all targets.
Crimson Death (BG): 375 damage, 30 foot AOE, +10% chance to be critically hit to all targets.
— No ability in any tanks arsenal deals this much damage single target, or AOE. Crimson Death comes the closest by doing just over half the damage and essentially reducing Initiative instead of mass snaring.

Oathstone: ~100% block for 4 hits, deals 750 damage in return.
Elite Training (BG): ~100% parry for 4 hits, regains AP when defending.
— Can’t Hit Me (BO) grants +50% block for up to 16 seconds, but is channeled, drains your AP and reduces movement. The only analogue is Elite Training, which can grant up to 60 AP. This is compared to 3,000 damage Oathstone can deal, something that Blackguard can not compensate for with the extra 60 AP.

Grudge-Born Fury: 560 damage over 3 secodns, +20% crit rate.
Enraged Beating: ~560 damage over 3 seconds, restores hate when crit.
— Enraged Beating helps fuel hate production, making it a great asset, but when used as a damage-dealing ability it falls short due to substantially lower crit rates. T’ree Hit Combo can use a tactic to gain +20% crit on the first hit, but its cooldown is over twice as long and all hits past the first do not gain any additional crit.

All right, now I’d like to point out a few things. Properly specced an Ironbreaker has more CC than any other class (tank or otherwise) with an AOE knockback, a 20 second knockdown, a 5 second knockdown and 2 AOE snares. They also have the best Willpower buff in game, the highest damage dealing abilities of all tanks and has an armor reduction ability that reduces at least 500 more armor than all other armor reductions in game. Several abilities have no mirror, which makes them hard to compare to anything properly. Here’s a list of Ironbreakers ‘top’ list in damage, these are abilities that do much more damage than abilities given to other classes, including DPS classes.

Binding Grudge: 852 damage over 10 seconds (highest DoT in game).
Earthshatter: 748 damage, AOE (highest pbAOE in game).
Cave-In: 745 damage over 5 seconds (2nd place DoT in game).

The amount of options available also gives Ironbreaker a very good high damage sequence. I’m using the values that a 13/0/9 IB would have, so that is why the damage is slightly lower base value.

The sequence is as follows: Binding Grudge > Heavy Blow > Cave-In > Grudge-Born Fury > Earthshatter

Total base damage is 3,091 total. DoTs are preloaded, using Heavy Blow to make sure Binding Grudge gets to work fully during the knockdown, then matching Grudge-Born Fury’s channel time with the knockdown duration and finishing with your a meaty Earthshatter. When you begin putting in stats you’ll quickly realize that this is almost always going to deal around 5,000 damage against target with medium or lower armor without critting.

I’m actually part of the crowd that thinks Away With Ye isn’t that obscene. There’s Tor Anroc and some annoying bridges, but it’s not that unbalancing. What is questionable to me is the assortment of abilities that are not only well above the damage other tanks can put out, but are often higher damage than abilities given to DPS classes. It’s even more interesting when you realize all their highest damage abilities also have heavy debuffs associated with them. Then you line this up with a class that also has many defensive options as well as being able to significantly buff a partner, particularly low armor healers… well… what else can I say about our lovely Dwarfs?

I guess I can be the first to welcome all you prospective Slayers out there. Just remember, you have competition.


11 Comments leave one →
  1. March 5, 2009 4:31 am

    Thanks for this it’s an interesting read as I play a warrior priest Alt with a friend who has an iron breaker and it’s good to see how he compares to other races as I havn’t played one yet 🙂

  2. ConvertedSwordmaster permalink
    March 5, 2009 10:50 am

    Wow…. I been playing a subpar class all this time!

    Good bye underwhelming Swordmaster

    Hello IronBreaker 🙂

  3. styxzy permalink
    March 5, 2009 4:45 pm

    I wish Mythic would read this:)… still I enjoy my underappreciated blackguard.

  4. Sarmaul permalink
    March 7, 2009 7:48 am

    Now compare defensive abilities and lol at the IB :). It’s an offensive (THE offensive) tank. It drops like shit with the new resistance changes, something my BG won’t be doing (75% perma-disrupt with HtL anyone?)

  5. March 7, 2009 8:31 am

    First: sorry for my poor english

    Nice review, but it’s relatively easy to take the strenght point of a class and compare with the weak version from other classes.

    Take, for example, silence, abs melee shields, resist and some more particular group buffs, various stats debuff (like resists, strenght, wounds etc), returned damage, tactics that boost wounds or the heals received and so on and IBs will be not only inferior to other tanks skills, but will be simply inexistent because IB don’t have any of those skills.

    In some abilities comparison, you talk correctly about being not full grudge in others you simply forget about this fundamental mechanic.
    Some test runned in IB forums shows that in a random scenario only about 40% of the hits was made at 100 grudge.Actually, the tactic that allow us to build up grudge relatively fast, is stealth nerfed/bugged and grant less grudge over time than before.
    The result is that an IB is not always at 100 grudge like some nice pew-pew movies may suggest.

    Plus, you miss some points.
    – Many feature you described come from abilities or tactics that no all IB use or simply are specced for.
    – Heavy blow: you have not specified that this dot dmg come only from 100 grudge. Dot from different Heavy blows don’t stack, and 3 application of Blazing Blade needs only 4,5 secs, there is a fight shorter than 4,5 secs?
    – Away with Ye consume grudge, other KB consume AP. With no max grudge you cannot output the dmg/utilities you listed in this article, so AP dependat KB are better.
    – Gusting wind do more damage than REA, you miss the spirit debuf of SMs and the resist stack nerf in 1.2
    – Rune etched axe is NOT a knockback+snare without the tactic
    – You have not specified that Cave in dmg come only at 100 grudge. And Down Ya Go is far superior of Cave In, burst damage >>>> DOT. Plus BO can get +% critic dmg, so a Down Ya Go critic will be far far superior of what IB have now.
    – Earthshatter damage: you have not specified that this dmg come only at 100 grudge. Ok the aoe dmg is superior but single target potential damage of ES is surpassed by SM and BO abilities from 1.2 patch. You need to see some screenshot from BOs.
    – And so on.

  6. pancakez permalink*
    March 7, 2009 12:58 pm

    Sorry Andrea, but I was not comparing to the ‘weak versions’ of other classes, I was comparing to the absolute best alternative that other classes have. All your responses are very opinionated and are pretty much ignoring the way Ironbreakers are played. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that I treated all abilities as having 15 points to give all classes a fair comparison. Some other issues you bring up are simply not supported by any math.

    Sarmaul, in terms of defensive abilities I actually touched on three already. Oathstone is actually buffed from pre 1.2, unless you had some huge amounts of strength (which a defensive IB would probably not have). The armor buff assures you will always be sitting at capped armor. Like I said, I didn’t really go over PVE tanking, which all that really matters.

  7. March 8, 2009 6:06 am

    Yes, but IB doens’t have “alternative” for many abiities that other tanks have. Now you see the point? IB have surely some “best abilities compared to others” but lacks other utilities/skill that others have. It’s called balance.
    I play an IB since release, i’ve tried every single skill every single spec, every single combination of item and combo of skills, so i surely not ignore the way IB are played, sorry sir.
    I think you need to try to look beyond the merely numbers that come with of an IB with 100 grudge and analyze the “real” world.
    I think you need some play in 1.2 patch and seeing what other tanks can output now. I’ve see Chones break 600k dmg in SC, i’ve see BO crit for over 2k, i’ve see SM hit for over 500 5 times in a row in 3 secs etc.
    In 1.2 IB have surely lost the “crown of best tank” in the game.

    P.S. Oh, I forgot.. why i haven’t compared the dmg of GBF versus Ether Dance or Three Hit Combo? THe difference is abysmal.

  8. Jasta permalink
    March 8, 2009 6:25 am

    Some pretty one sided comparisons here.

    As someone said before, most of these comparisons are based on 100 grudge… this doesn’t fall magically from the sky anymore. To get 100 grudges reliably these days you need to spec Rising Anger – that’s like dumping a tactic slot. You’ve obviously never played an Ironbreaker that gets caught flat-footed on zero grudge – by the time you start hitting for decent damage you’re on half health and the fight’s virtually over.

    You also completely ignore things like the fact that you need to use a 7 point talent tactic to knock back with rune etched axe while BO’s get an aoe punt as a standard ability.

    And like most of these comparisons you only look at one side of the story and ignore cases that don’t support your opinions.

    eg. Blackguards get a self-heal as a core ability. Feeding on Weakness does decent damage, adds strength has a 5 second cooldown and heals for more based on Hate.
    Grumble n Mutter or Avenging the debt are both talented and don’t even come close to that.

    Same goes for the BG’s damage shield which protects against all damage as a core ability – IB’s have to talent into a magic only shield.

    Stop these ridiculous grass is greener comparisons that don’t tell even half the story.

  9. Omelettez permalink*
    March 8, 2009 10:57 am

    I keep forgetting that BGs actually HAVE a self-heal ability. I’ll be surprised the day it breaks 1k healing in a scenario. The strength buff is nice, but it is only up for such a short period of time. Yeah, it’s got a 5 second cooldown, but we have much better abilities to use for damage over that. Half the time I forget to use it. I honestly don’t see how saying BGs have a PoS self-heal ability makes for a good comparison or argument for anything.

    I mean… are people really that bent out of shape over the fact BGs have a pathetic self-heal? Or our shield that goes poof in two seconds while being focused on?

  10. pancakez permalink*
    March 8, 2009 2:08 pm

    I’m never more amused than when I make a thread in which I never call for a nerf, only to have the players of a class cry out how everyone else is better than them and they suck and no one should ever bring up that they’re actually a very strong class. Really, I don’t think Ironbreaker should be nerfed. It’s silly to try and twist arguments around to try and defend against nerfs when everyone already knows that Ironbreaker’s core playset is the top of the tanks. Guess what, Ironbreaker really is the best of the tanks… and they still have problems. Seems like a nerf to them would be pretty uncalled for, but are you really so scared of the other tanks being brought up to par?

    Oh and for anyone actually reading this, after being linked from some random forum post claiming that Ironbreaker needs to be nerfed because of this thread, here’s my opinion. Stone Breaker needs to be toned down. Ironbreaker is fine. Other tanks should be brought up to that level. Thanks for reading.

  11. ghaz permalink
    March 10, 2009 10:17 am

    completly agree other tanks really do need to be brought up to par. i play a Borc and quite frankly the patch has destroyed my love for the class, i admit that da toughest was OPed but now its next to useless and i don’t want to play a dps tank so i couldn’t careless for the buff to our dmg.

    in a 1vs1 with a well played IB pre patch i would get owned now it just stupid, but anyway i think they did a good job with SM’s in this patch and they seem to have been brought upto par (ish) now can they please do it with some destro TANKS ;D

    lol great article

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