Comments on: the problem with scissors http://breakfastatwar.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/the-problem-with-scissors/ 'coz stunties iz better than bacon Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:00:26 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Long time coming « Book of Grudges http://breakfastatwar.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/the-problem-with-scissors/#comment-906 Long time coming « Book of Grudges Mon, 04 May 2009 07:19:58 +0000 http://breakfastatwar.wordpress.com/?p=647#comment-906 [...] diagrams and dots from Breakfast at WAR, so here’s Pancakez’ view on the old chestnut of Rock, Paper, Scissors. It’s plainly [...] [...] diagrams and dots from Breakfast at WAR, so here’s Pancakez’ view on the old chestnut of Rock, Paper, Scissors. It’s plainly [...]

]]> By: pancakez http://breakfastatwar.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/the-problem-with-scissors/#comment-828 pancakez Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:04:00 +0000 http://breakfastatwar.wordpress.com/?p=647#comment-828 @squirrt: The charts are a representation of how it works on average, not really how it works for every possible setup. For that you'd have to work out how that balance web works, because WAR is balanced in a very random manner. Squig Herder, Magus, Engineer and Shadow Warrior all lose to tanks. Bright Wizard and Sorceress typically lose to tanks that have better damage, or a lot of defenses with a two-hander (ie: Blackguard, Swordmaster, Ironbreaker). As far as the huge kneejerk that 1.2 caused, I would object that this was caused by the testing cycle of 1.2. Patch 1.2 was only tested in depth for roughly four days. Other companies with this large of patches test for months. Even when 1.2.1 was released Mythic was still throwing in bug fixes for things that were broken by 1.2. @Czarnal: Tanks in this analysis were considered to be geared for open PVP, which means very high strength and specced for CC. I've never seen a healer able to stand up to a tank that properly controls the fight. Detaunts get countered by taunts. If the healer tries to fight back the detaunt is removed and AP is wasted, then the healer is interrupted with taunts, knocked down when they try to recover and just doesn't have a way to adequately fight back. @squirrt: The charts are a representation of how it works on average, not really how it works for every possible setup. For that you’d have to work out how that balance web works, because WAR is balanced in a very random manner. Squig Herder, Magus, Engineer and Shadow Warrior all lose to tanks. Bright Wizard and Sorceress typically lose to tanks that have better damage, or a lot of defenses with a two-hander (ie: Blackguard, Swordmaster, Ironbreaker).

As far as the huge kneejerk that 1.2 caused, I would object that this was caused by the testing cycle of 1.2. Patch 1.2 was only tested in depth for roughly four days. Other companies with this large of patches test for months. Even when 1.2.1 was released Mythic was still throwing in bug fixes for things that were broken by 1.2.

@Czarnal: Tanks in this analysis were considered to be geared for open PVP, which means very high strength and specced for CC. I’ve never seen a healer able to stand up to a tank that properly controls the fight. Detaunts get countered by taunts. If the healer tries to fight back the detaunt is removed and AP is wasted, then the healer is interrupted with taunts, knocked down when they try to recover and just doesn’t have a way to adequately fight back.

]]> By: Czarnal http://breakfastatwar.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/the-problem-with-scissors/#comment-827 Czarnal Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:04:12 +0000 http://breakfastatwar.wordpress.com/?p=647#comment-827 Very astute analysis... though from my experience tanks can't beat ranged heals in solo play .. both as a tank and as a ranged healer. This is a problem with a PvP-focused game, this sort of micro-balancing is really necessary to optimize PvP play but it doesn't have the same appeal to potential subscribers, casuals, and people outside of the game that other game play or world enhancements would have. Once you commit to a PvP focus, I think, you agree to sacrifice the rest of the game a bit. Very astute analysis… though from my experience tanks can’t beat ranged heals in solo play .. both as a tank and as a ranged healer.

This is a problem with a PvP-focused game, this sort of micro-balancing is really necessary to optimize PvP play but it doesn’t have the same appeal to potential subscribers, casuals, and people outside of the game that other game play or world enhancements would have.

Once you commit to a PvP focus, I think, you agree to sacrifice the rest of the game a bit.

]]> By: Wafflez http://breakfastatwar.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/the-problem-with-scissors/#comment-826 Wafflez Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:15:17 +0000 http://breakfastatwar.wordpress.com/?p=647#comment-826 @ Pancakes: You just applied the principle of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabermetrics" rel="nofollow">Sabremetrics</a> to WAR - well done! @ Squirrt - I agree. When you change too many variable during the course of problem determination you tend to cause cause unforseen problems. Of course they have to balance slowing the phase-in of their fixes against customer complaints. It's not a position I'd like to be in if I were Mythic. @ Pancakes: You just applied the principle of Sabremetrics to WAR – well done!

@ Squirrt – I agree. When you change too many variable during the course of problem determination you tend to cause cause unforseen problems. Of course they have to balance slowing the phase-in of their fixes against customer complaints. It’s not a position I’d like to be in if I were Mythic.

]]> By: Squirrt http://breakfastatwar.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/the-problem-with-scissors/#comment-824 Squirrt Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:50:17 +0000 http://breakfastatwar.wordpress.com/?p=647#comment-824 Good right up. I think that you might want to consider breaking your ranged option into 2 though. I play a squig herder on magnus and I very seldom defeat a Iron Breaker, Swordmaster, Knights or WL's. But the Sorcerer I run with defeats the very quickly and easily. In reflection, I don't think WAR will be able to accomplish what you are suggesting. The reason is that the original concept was designed around grand large battles. But now they have appeared to have lost this focus and are trying to balance the sides. IMO this is what has lead them to where they are currently, no real direction. The original designers are trying to go one way but are being pulled by a player base another way. Creating what appears, at times uncontrolled gut reaction changes to the game. For instance in 1.2 if they had not buffed Bright Wizards damage, nerfed the talisman resists, and hard capped the resistances at 40% all at once, but phased in the changes and getting some feed back you would not have such a huge knee jerk reaction of 1.3 to the AOE stacking damage. Good right up. I think that you might want to consider breaking your ranged option into 2 though. I play a squig herder on magnus and I very seldom defeat a Iron Breaker, Swordmaster, Knights or WL’s. But the Sorcerer I run with defeats the very quickly and easily.

In reflection, I don’t think WAR will be able to accomplish what you are suggesting. The reason is that the original concept was designed around grand large battles. But now they have appeared to have lost this focus and are trying to balance the sides. IMO this is what has lead them to where they are currently, no real direction. The original designers are trying to go one way but are being pulled by a player base another way. Creating what appears, at times uncontrolled gut reaction changes to the game.

For instance in 1.2 if they had not buffed Bright Wizards damage, nerfed the talisman resists, and hard capped the resistances at 40% all at once, but phased in the changes and getting some feed back you would not have such a huge knee jerk reaction of 1.3 to the AOE stacking damage.

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